Wouldn't the Tempest make more sense as the Attack BS? The Typhoon is an odd enough duck to begin with, making it the poster child for swift Minmatar attacks... with missiles? That makes no frelling sense. The Tempest description even calls it a gunship. Definition: 'a light craft armed with heavy guns'. I'd really like to see the roles in the OP reversed.

The Maelstrom is the big bruiser raining death from afar.
The Typhoon can be the lovably ugly trash can spewing missiles in the middle distance.
The Tempest is the swift sailed flagship meant to dart in and hit hard.

Would have to agree.... make typhoon the brawler and tempest the attack BS and would make MUCH more sense. The tempest Shoudl be a hit and run battleship nto a brawler. IT lOOKS FRAGILE. the typhoon on other hand LOOKS like a ROCK!

No one is really saying that the ship changes being purposed makes these ships non-viable.

As for the tempest, I think what we are now looking at is having the tempest be part of the 'attack' category as well as the typhoon. It already behaves more or less like an attack ship, and maybe adding hp and increasing sig wasn't adding much to the overall ship. So we will likely bring the sig back down to near where it was before, take some of the hp back, and increase its speed slightly.

Really the phoon comparison is a surprise?............ and its also clearly a shield tanker according to its higher shield HP than armour HP despite the odd slot layout as plating it will kill its speed and these attack battleships aren't nearly as fast and agile as you seem to think..
Make the pest a heavy armour tanker

Hurrah! Nice to be listened to isn't it people?

I am far from opposed to having a fast, missile spamming minmatar battleship, but jamming the typhoon into this role, but none of its traditional flexibility left is not so good. You should also acknowledge that speed dose nothing for its uses it in a PvE or fleet role, which are more common uses than your post seems to imply you realize.

The tempest changed OK. That would put him in a proper place compared to the mega. But I do not think the Shield HP are valid because Minmatar are supposed to have less Hit point than other races. That is minmatar identity and how they pay up their signature. Sorry but the tempest cannot have so much HP without taking them form other layer.


The typhoon proposition also is FAR FAR too powerful. That would make people right on complaining about the typhoon. The ship would be too pwoerful against battleships and at same time much weaker against smaller ships.

I think Rise current idea of a typhoon is OK. very attackish (something I wish I could say about tempest)

Tempest should be:

7000/7000/6500 shield/armor/ hull (-300 armor, - -380 hull)
125/ .11/ 101050000 speed/agility/mass (+5 speed , -0.01 agility)



AND I would love if it would move 1 high to somewhere else.

That in fact is way weaker than current rise proposal.

people are underestimating the power of torpedoes with explosion velocity bonus. They make projectile turrets look pathetic.

The thing is the dual neuting will be almost irrelevant now. If you want a neut ship you will bring the geddon. 1 neut is enough to deal with frigates. That is why i Think would be a MINIMAL loss.

I like everything except the Typhoon having its Drones nerfed. The ability to field a full set of Heavies and still have enough bay to bring additional flights of Light drones was one of the major things that always drew me to the Typhoon.

Oo i can find very good uses. Sensor booster if I am camping. Track computer and track disruptor if I want to fight larger ships. Plus MWD, CAP Injector (neut is useles swithout it), Web, Scram.

A 6th bonused launcher doesn't provide "nominal" damage, and changing from 100 --> 125 BW wouldn't offset the loss of the 6th.

That's one of the best Typhoon layouts I've seen in this thread yet. I'd even support the loss of another high if it could be made 6H; 6 Turrets, 6 launchers (a total wildcard).

I think they should go with something like this for the Typhoon. If the DPS is still a bit low by removing the launcher hardpoint then you could always increase the rate of fire bonus to 7.5%

This way the Typhoon still can fully utilise all 3 weapon systems, including a decently sized drone bay, and does not simply become and armoured Raven.

Typhoon:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo launcher explosion velocity

Slot layout: 7H, 5M, 7L; 5 turrets, 5 launchers (-1)
Fittings: 12500 PWG, 640 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 6000 / 6000
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1087s / 4.97
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 / .11 / 103600000 / 15.8
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 (+25) / 200 (+100)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 115 / 7
Sensor strength: 19 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 330

That typhoon is way over the top. Seven double bonused high power hardpoints makes it the highest DPS missile boat in the game, and adding 125 drone bandwidth is just a slap in the face to every other missile boat. That rivals the mach which is something that a normal battleship just should not do.

Theres no point in using gyrostabs when you can just max out on bcs and launchers.... a missile boat, and exactly what we're trying to avoid. I'd rather see the Phoon with its current ROF bonuses than a dull missile boat set.

It'll be a sad, sad, former shadow of itself if the Typhoon ends up as a missile boat.... with a turret.

Heck, it'd be sadder than it just being a missile boat.

As a missile boat, it has a use. Admitedly, one that doesn't fit the Minnie background at all.

As a boat with many launchers and turrets that are of no use, it's just a waste. The turret is pointless. at least people might use the missile boat.

As a Swis army ship (or left as it is) it's unique and useful.



I certainly know that I'd only pilot the last, and I've even maxed all the BS missile skills (except Torpedo spec).

That's below 110k ehp, and while it DOES do competitive damage, you're now 100% fixed to a passive armor setup. The Typhoon is clearly the superior ship, made even more obvious as soon as you try to put a rep or something on it.

The previously suggested Tempest stats were much nicer. Sure it was a little bit bigger, but it also had hitpoints similar to that of the other races. A slightly smaller sig is not worth losing 20-30k ehp.

I say keep the slot layout as it is now, but give it the stats that were originally proposed.
Hell, keep the stupid sig if it appeases the masses, it won't be a big deal.

IDEALLY Id like to see the Tempest be a 748 arrangement, but I think the nanofools will cry foul even moreso.

On closer inspection, the Tempest is pretty bad.

Or 7/6/6 - making it a strong shield tanker, allowing it to be faster than a Megathron, with decent EHP and DPS (somewhere around proms bench marks) WITH a web and a point. Less neuting power than before, but oh well, you can't have everything.

Hell, keep the stupid sig if it appeases the masses, it won't be a big deal.

I liked the tempest sig at 420.

The sig radius effect is HIGHLY situational. I'm not a BS combat guru, but there's a large range of angular velocities where even a 50% difference in sig will make less than a 5% difference in damage taken. Specifically, if you are near optimal of railrokhs or hellcats (two very different situations, results the same), your sig doesn't mean squat as far as damage applied. If you are outside of optimal that's doubly true; only when you get well inside of optimal--AND have a high transversal--does small sig start to really help out.

Sit down with eft damage graphs for a while to get the feel for it.

The only situation where small battleship signature is nice, is when it comes to getting bombed.

Tempest:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG, 550 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7300 (+300) / 7300 / 6500 (-300)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 (+10) / .11 (-0.1) / 101050000 / ??
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 350 (-10)

I'm hoping that the silence is due to an attempt to re-re-balance a number of ships to stop the constant whining.

Sadly (for me) I figure that the (almost) 90 page long set of complaints about Gallente BS will get more focus than this thread.

The Tempest shouldn't get a smaller signature than what was already proposed.
The reasoning is that if you go much smaller, you're entering Battlcruiser territory.

It doesn't really matter if you think the ships current proposed HP is *fine*, because once you've factored in everything else, ti's quite poor. I don't have a problem with the ships slot layout, and I was a big fan of the Mega (initially) sharing it. You can keep the signature and but IMO it needs to get that extra bit of base hitpoints back.

The Typhoon is lower as a base, yes, but it also has an extra low slot (greater armor tank).
So despite having less armor to start off with, its a higher damage ship (torps+heavies) with more low slots.
On top of it all, THAT ship has absurd enough speed, damage projection, and signature to make its nanoing capability worthwhile. It's basically a fat battlecruiser, or a really high dps Drake.

The were reduced (along with signature) because the collective was complaining that it wasn't a crappy 6 mid shield tanker.

People have been requesting an extra mid for better shield-tanking & nanoing about. There's no other reason to ask for one when your ships already got 5

The base speed between the Typhoon & Tempest may be close, but the difference between the two of them is pretty huge. The reason? Agility & Mass. The Tempest is a fat brick compared to the Typhoon.

As for Minmatar not getting their 5 heavies anymore. Think of it this way, you're still better off than Caldari

If the tempest was actually a shield tanker, then the discrepancy between the speed and agility of the phoon would make sense... And so would the anaemic dps, You could try to make a better armour tanker I suppose (with more low slots), (would require more drone dps and to relook at the speed/agility stats) but it really doesn't make sense given how many ships can do a similar thing.

Do you put 2 or 3 gyros on your armor tanking tempest fit?

My point was that most of the time you will not have the luxury of being able to take advantage of a small sig; my phrasing of "HIGHLY situational" was euphamistic for "rarely relevant" and that's true. Seriously, go to EFT, and compare two BSs with 60mm sig difference. Tell me that'll matter in more than one engagement out of 100. I was looking at something like a 590 shield rokh vs a 400 armor mega--a MUCH bigger difference than you're discussing. The attacking BS had huge window in which they did at least 95% of their damage to the smaller sig. There was a range of a few KM--max, with a circular orbit!--when the mega was under the guns of the shooter and the rokh wasn't. The mega got a free bonus, too, being faster than the rokh, which I didn't correct for. Sig is a great mechanic; it is excellent for making frigs hard to hit by BS, yet still requiring pilot skill out of frig. It is hardly ever a deciding factor in bs vs. bs.

Skirmish links will lower the sig radius further. Halo implants (hi low sec!) will do the same. With both - that Typhoon and Tempest will actually sit at 165m and 180m respectively.

I have been dusting off some old fits on the Tempest (while at work... hehehe) and checking it out with the new PG. Some quick observations-

The shield buffered Tempest comes up at LEAST 20k EHP short vs. a similarly fitted Maelstrom.
A pure gank Tempest (800 AC, Torps, flight of Valkyries, gyro x 3) will do 1200 DPS normal and 1300 overheated.
There is no arty fit for the Tempest that justifies it over the Mael.

Here is the thing- The Maelstrom is your go to for Projectiles - arty in particular- and shield tanking. The Typhoon has great speed, torp DPS, and armor tanking to offer. The Tempest offers unpredictability and utility. It's pretty clear that many don't regard that as enough.

I'll keep this real simple. Rather then mess with slots, bonuses, or HP- change the drone bay. Increase it to at least 125m^3. This will let armor tankers pad their DPS a bit. It would give shield tankers a bit more firepower to justify the lack of EHP compared to the Mael. Lastly it gives - get this - utility to the last Swiss Army knife BS in the Minmatar That is all.

So, after a lot more thinking... No matter how much you try to get around it, the typhoon is nothing but a big bellicose, so might as well make it a proper disruption BS. Amarr got theirs, so I see no reason why the Typhoon couldn't be the Minmatar one.

Changes to suggested typhoon:
- remove ALL drones
- add another medium slot
- add target painter bonus instead of explosion velocity
- add racial damage bonus

Suggested tempest changes:
- remove all drones
- add another low slot
- rebalance medium range t1 projectile ammo

Find shameless link to my "minmatar flavor" post below for more background on these suggestions:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=225308&find=unread

Tempest:

Retaining it's super low BC signature radius, the new 7/6/6 Tempest trades the utility of the 2nd neutrialiser - on a ship known to be light on capacitor- for improved performance as a shield tanker, as well as increased flexibility, unpredictability and damage projection with armour as well as an additional drone.

From target painters, dual prop/dual webs, tracking computers or ecm, the unprecedented 6/6 mid/low slot layout exemplifies more than ever, the ad-hoc minimatar philosophy and despite the lower than average hit points, operational speed, utility and damage projection profiles whilst shield or armour fitted allows the Tempest to compete in ways no other battleship really does.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 7H, 6M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG(+500), 570 CPU (+20)
Defence (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 7000 / 6500 (reduce shield regen speed by 20%)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400(+87.5) / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .12 / 101000000(-2300000) / 16.81s(-.37s)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 125
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km(+5k) / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength(+1)
Signature radius: 340(0)

At the end of the day, you're better off in a Maelstrom.

An armor tank is still superior with 6 lows, but would now be ridiculous with an EXTRA ewar slot in the mids.
The Scorpion only has 8 slots and it needs to do EVERYTHING with them.

Buh.... err.... WTF?

How about this? -=MAKE THE TYPHOON THE ULTRA VERSATILE TYPHOON=-.

It would be less work and make more sense.

You must be high and drunk if you think that would ever happen.

You must be high and drunk if you think that anything should have 9.81x 1400mm's worth of alpha.

Yes, and you also give it stupidly high alpha and mostly destroy the Maelstrom as the fleet artillery platform.

No it shouldn't.

And with your bonus, it's more like 9.8, with a tracking bonus? High and drunk indeed.

if you want to combine bonuses, I would go for a 7.5% rof , sided with a 100mbits droen bay.

That would result in almost same dps

Shield tanking on Battleship scale does not make the sig and agility useless. You would fit an anciliary booster on a 7/6/6 tempest. The tank would nto be there to resist a full onslaught, but to repair the damage you could not mitigate with mobility.

That wasn't my proposal, not even close.

The tempest get's 7/6/6 slightly more grid and cpu with slightly less sig, mass and as a result, higher base speed than the current Tempest proposal. The HP has been normalised with other ATTACK SHIPS, because that's exactly what it would become.

But feel free to continue thinking that a 10% damage and tracking bonus is sane.

If your going with a 8% ROF, i'd suggest pairing it up with fall off, especially after the TE nerf.

The point isn't to make an OMGWTFBBQ ship with perfect bonuses. Tracking on high alpha ships should be poor, or else they'd be even more broken then they are now, fall-off has way better synergy with kiting anyway and provides a range option for fleet fit artilery that doesn't completely overshadow the tornado or maelstrom with for example, almost 10 guns of alpha!!

And I still don't think you understand the difference between a 7/6/6 tempest or mealstrom.

And no, I posted an alternative with similar bonuses suggested by someone else a few pages ago.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2885041#post2885041

I think something similar to this would be good. So basically you are just reducing EHP shield and balancing it between armour and shield, increasing the speed and agility to the Typhoon levels, dropping signature by -10 to just above the Typhoon levels, and most importantly combining the damage bonuses and giving the Tempest a much needed tracking bonus.

Tempest:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+7.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage
+7.5% bonus to Large Projectile tracking

Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG, 550 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6900 (-100) / 6900 (-400) / 6500 (-300)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 (+10) / .11 (-0.1) / 101050000 / ??
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 350 (-10)

This way you can use the Tempest as a sort of big brother to the hurricane. It can be fit with auto's and two neuts, and then use it to orbit whilst neuting whilst mitigating some damage with a speed tank. Alternative you could fit it with a shield tank and artillery and use it to kite the enemy whilst maintaining range with your superior speed. So pretty much a similar version of what we have with the Tempest in game right now. Would basically be just a Tempest on steroids. :)

It's not a conceptionally flawed design, it's a design built around the way a lot of pilots fly the ship, IE, kiting, with provisions/benifits for those who want to armour tank it in fleets. Infact, it offers a lot unique things in both aspects without displacing the roles of other battleships or ABC's.

No.

Fit with armour if your super worried about signature radius.

Now you have more turret range, or an extra point or scram, or an extra tracking distruptor or ecm or eccm or web or target painter or cap injector or MJD or AB etc etc.

If you can't see how that additional flexibility isnt better than an additional high....

It's no less efficient at being an armour tanker than your proposal, yell, my proposal has MORE ARMOUR HP than yours. With the same number of low slots. Are you seriously high or something?

6 mids means you can choose to have even more damage projection than now, or some other form of utility. Far from being pigeoned holed. Your far better off now than before, especially with the larger drone bay. (on the first, or increased turret damage on the second)

You still don't understand the concept do you?

Wait, first i'm pigeon holing the ship as a shield tanker only, and now it's overpowered for armour tanking?

AND THEN, you turned the Tempest into an insane Artillery ship that completely overshadows the Maelstrom and in the main way it's used (FLEETS!) and the Tornado and you tell me that I'm the one who's overwriting roles?

Your completely all over the map.

Guys.. you are actign a bit childish and as if what you 2 decided would be implemented. You guys need to convince RISe that the tempest need soem fine tunning. Not bicker amogn yourself. If anything, this discussion is just sealing future of tempest as " forever unchachable"

No, the speed and agility of the tempest almost already overshadows the Maelstrom in fleets

Rememberign that we had to make a giatn outcry for them to perceive that race identity was more important thatn uniformity and minmatar should have 2 attack hulls.

Ideally, I'd restore the slot, drones and hardpoints Typhoon almost back to the way it was, keeping everything else changed including the bonuses.

Kinda sad how few people are defending the old typhoon. We really need some feedback from CCP Rise on what's gonna happen. I really want to see minmatar keep at least one utility battleship.

Assumed i have read the proposed changes correctly and haven't had a major derp, thats exactly what ccp is going for.
making the typhoon drone bay smaller is part of that. it was bigger as you would have expected.
but i would not complain for the current typhoon to get the FleetScythe treatment and otherwise stay as it is right now ^^

The Tempest is already an overgrown hurricane (except it can still fit 1600mm plates ), and it still kinda sucks.

You have also given the Minmatar 3 Attack Battleships, in your own words, so where is our alternative?

You keep nerfing Minmatar ships, are you trying to make up for that projectile weapons buff a few years back?

The tempest has 2 options to become useful really.
- mini machariel give it a 5% falloff with shield tank although then you think about the tornado....
-Heavy armour tanker

The typhoon at least will have a new role and a powerful one.

versatiliity? Lol You mean being useless? versatilily is just a polite way to say HORRIBLE! THis game is a game about specialization.

All the minmatar ships taht are successful are NOT VERSATILE!

Versatility is the shortest path to mediocricity

Typhoon

Close range heavy shield boost torpedo specialist. It's up close and is very much in the vein of the Breacher.

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
+7.5% bonus to Shield Boost Amount

Typhoon - Rate of fire + shield boost
Raven - Rate of fire + velocity.

You seem to be implying that I support a shield boosted Typhoon with a ROF bonus AND an explosion velocity bonus. Hum. No.

Hey guys

I'm not ignoring anything, I promise. I think many of the last few posts are kind of extreme, but I also agree that the Tempest potentially falls short considering the rest of the changes in this pass. For now, I don't want to make a change. I'd rather wait a little longer (hopefully for sisi testing) to get the best overall sense possible, then make some adjustments. Part of the reason for not committing to something now is that it may be that other ships (like the Hyperion) need adjustments as well (if its too strong) and so I want to wait until we feel we've got the best sense possible for the entire class before we make final changes.

We'll keep looking at the Tempest though, and if it does end up feeling too weak, we'll make a change.

Typhoon:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Cruise and Torpedo launcher explosion velocity

Slot layout: 7H, 5M, 7L; 5 turrets, 5 launchers (-1)
Fittings: 12500 PWG, 640 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6500 / 6000 / 6000
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1087s / 4.97
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 / .11 / 103600000 / 15.8
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 (+25) / 200 (+100)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 115 / 7
Sensor strength: 19 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 330

I can imagine fitting the Typhoon proposed above something like this

[Typhoon, Typhoon]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener
True Sansha Armor Kinetic Hardener
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II
Target Painter II
Target Painter II

Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Torpedo
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Hail L

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I

Hobgoblin II x10
Ogre II x6

The torp launchers put out 826 dps at max skills, the unbonused autos would put out an extra 111 dps, then unbonused heavy drones an additional 317.

This way the Typhoon still can fully utilise all 3 weapon systems, including a decently sized drone bay, and does not simply become and armoured Raven.

Looks quite fun to fit and fly, and still maintains a good use for all 3 weapons systems if required. That is pretty cookie cutter though, I'm sure the ship engineers could come up with something much better.

I think the Tempest could use some more tweaking, there are a number directions that CCP could take if they chose to do so. And I am not going to pretend to know the best one to take. I can only state my personal desires on the matter. In truth that all any of us can do. I just want the Tempest to be a competitive projectile armed battleship that can armor tank. If that can be done with out changing it's slot lay out then all the better. But if it turns out that CCP believes that changing the slot lay out will result in a ship that will be viable and usable in more situations then I wouldn't want to tie their hands to having to stay with one concept.

You can't increase the tempests damage output so that it "works" in armour because then you create an armour tanking minmatar ship that out damages a blaster boat at all ranges. Shield Fitted with tracking mods, it's suddenly competitive on the damage output, but a complete paper tiger tank wise.

Armour tanking, it neither has the dps or the ehp to be competitive, to be honest, it was never really good for anything but pretending to be a BC, and now that BS hulls have been normalised, is even less likely to be considered by anyone as the go to ship for a specific role.

rant

bro as i said above to that guy ..u need to gtfo from empire also and go low sec or nullsec to learn proper pvp ...the new typhoon to work as a proper pvp ship if FLOWN by an EXPERT pilot and not a dumb **** ...it will have a armor buff and 3x trimarks ..so fitting a range rig to get like 5km or some **** like that but losing 10% armor hp wont happen ..no one ...and i mean no one will fit a range rig for torpedos on a typhoon if they fit for pvp not even people like my self that use slave sets...even i would go 3 trimarks plates / resists / dmg mods and that would be it so dont talk unless u flyed the ship and know wtf u on about ...typhoon is a excelent ship to surprize your enemy ..fit 5 torps 2 neuts and with the 5 ogres oh baby also ...to make it more interesting for u ccp HERE IS A SUGESTION ..since u gave the armageddon ..NOS bonus and turned it into a mini bhaalgorn / curse ..why not turn the bhaalgorn into a "larger" rapier give it 5% missile rof 7.5 % bonus to target paint / level that way or 7.5 reduction in exp radius / lvl that way u actually get a proper torpedo pvp typhoon and give ccp some time guys ...they are trying to rebalance the cruise missiles ...maybe they got something up next for torpedos also

why not turn the bhaalgorn into a "larger" rapier give it 5% missile rof 7.5 % bonus to target paint / level that way or 7.5 reduction in exp radius / lvl

true.. even is comming form a test guy :P still true. Tornado and mael takes most of temepst roles. And now the geddon will take the bring the neuts role

No you are the one not soundign OK. THe bhalghron thing i take as a joke. But he is right. Battleships will in 90% of tiem use rigs for endurance or fitting. At least on PVP.

Tornados were NOt created to be snieprs. they were created to be mobile AC boats. the falloff bonus screams that lounder than anything !

THe bhalghron thing i take as a joke.

to make it more interesting for u ccp HERE IS A SUGESTION ..since u gave the armageddon ..NOS bonus and turned it into a mini bhaalgorn / curse ..why not turn the bhaalgorn into a "larger" rapier give it 5% missile rof 7.5 % bonus to target paint / level that way or 7.5 reduction in exp radius / lvl

poor tempest it can't get a break....
tornado considering it has a falloff bonus its odd thats its the best arty user ... answer reduce fittings so can only use AC's

Ment typhoon -_- that came out wrong ill make sure to fix it lulz ! also your WH living is diferent from actual pvp you fight npc ..while we fight players ..get my point ?

FYI, weapons rigs are just about the poorest type of rig you can use on any ship.

You are starting to derail yourself completely. 1400mm benefits much LESS from falloff than AC> Arties get about 27% of the effect that AC get from same falloff bonus relative to their base effective damage projection. You are the one not using the brain to analyse properly

So basically, a bigger Tornado?

The tempest can fill a role close to tornado.. but it must be MUCH more powerful on part of that role to be useful.

killboard or it didnt happen and no i prefer smaller ships my self as u can see on my losses unfortunatlly u are still out of your league here u said u do wh stuff and use small stuff so why comment on bs if you dont use it ? simple as that ...last time i used pest was in 2010 was a gazilion time ago but it loved it i said **** it ..ima try it and barelly killed a drake and got out with 20% hull while having a slave set on me ...the ship lacks dps A LOT and i was fighting only a drake and a hurricane and again the bonus u sugested with faloff + rof ...is stupid ...u want a NANO bs with faloff i bring u the machariel ..fly it ..dont sugest turning the pest into one like ccp did with the mini bhaalgorn on the armageddon part

..the ship lacks dps A LOT and i was fighting only a drake and a hurricane and again the bonus u sugested with faloff

did he presented anything on stream? I am at work :(

He might want to make it cheaper in that case, and delete the hurricane.

I will not waste time makign proposals based on current slot layout because its nearly impossible to get a USEFUL ship with that slot layout on current metagame.

Don't mind her. I've been around long enough to see them make this mistake over and over again. They've finally gone in the right direction with the Hyperion, and maybe with :metrics: in time, they'll realise they've made the mistake, yet again, with the Tempest.

Beyond getting lectured by the alt of some noob who thinks it's a good idea to fit weapons rigs on a battleship - I already know where fuc.king with the speed/class role over lap goes.

And how many of those entities use battleship in the way the hew typhoon (that spawned this discussion) is intended to be used? Weapon rigs are failure in 9/10 times in battleships. 0.0 doctrines a LOT of times are not the best fit, becauser they must allow a MASS of members to train fast to a specific setup and keep costs reasonable (although that does nto mean CHEAP

That damage bonus is fine, however how the slots compare to the others isn't but I'd be fine with it if the mega got it's drones back, the raven getting a sig radius below 400, and the apoc getting a buff determined decent by an amarr pilot, probably a fitting increase.

NO! Its trying to do exaclty what the tornado is made to do.. and its inferior to the tornado on that role..... the result.. gets obvious.

The tempest being the weakest? Of the minmatar maybe but nor period. I'd like to introduce you to the raven, which has a hard time applying any of it's dps. Do you not see that bringing it into line is another way of saying it's becoming balanced? So you know seek to change it from slightly out classed to Op?

So why shouldn't the other races gain something unique to each ship? Why shouldn't the raven gain another missile slot to differ it from the phoon to solidify it's caldari roots as the missile race and why shouldn't the mega display that it's made by the drone race through a similar fashion to the talos.

It really hasn't. I think you're underestimating the power of the Raven's velocity bonus, and its superior shield tank. There are certainly lots of situations where the phoon would be the better pick, but the reverse is also true, and that's how it should be, IMO.

I'm starting to lose you now here.
http://i.imgur.com/7XWwUIM.jpg
** Those are with the new stats/slot layout etc - the megathron is at the bottom, it's faster, has the higher agility, more (well, almost exactly the same) ehp when a similar number of tanking modules is used. AND you keep on saying a tempest can hit further out, when I've shown this to be a meaningless statement because.
1) EVEN with 5 turrets, 425mm's will out damage 6 autocannons outside of web range using any ammo, with 7 turrets vs 6, it's almost no contest at any range, with any ammo, when you consider the megathon has 2 extra low slots for damage mods.

2) The Tempest doesn't have the option to do meaningful dps at range without completely sacrificing tank


Either way, I think we both agree that the slot layout is no good on the tempest as there is more utility born via mid slots (or low slots) than High slots.

It just wouldn't be balanced. Balance is about niches and roles, but just adding missiles and drones to suit dogma instead of stats isn't a good way to do game design.

Either way, I think we both agree that the slot layout is no good on the tempest as there is more utility born via mid slots (or low slots) than High slots.

It's a relative comparison that allows you (well, normal people with the mental facilities of an adult) to make clear comparisons. Obviously, remove tanking modules for damage mods and the tempests damage will increase at the expense of ehp. drop a plate and it'll go faster. Do you really need that to be illustrated?

AND yes, I see the bigger picture, almost every stat (beyond shield regen time, CPU and mass) wouldn't need to be changed, because of the fundimentality of changing the slots. Your trying your hardest to make it conform, put it in line with existing ships and current dogma. This is bad, this is how ships trample over each other, this is infact, pigeon holing to a higher extent than you realise whilst seriously upsetting the balance that allows a number of other minmatar ships to be meaningful.

The slot layout change I suggested increases the capabilities of the ship as swapping a high to a mid is far from zero sum, both in shield or armour configerations for reasons I've highlighted over and over again.
Instead of conforming dps numbers with adhoc bonuses, I've given pilots the frame work to better express how they want to fly the ship

I'm starting to lose you now here.
http://i.imgur.com/7XWwUIM.jpg
** Those are with the new stats/slot layout balance changes (note the word NEW next to the ship name) etc - the megathron is at the bottom, it's faster, has the higher agility, more (well, almost exactly the same) ehp when a similar number of tanking modules is used. AND you keep on saying a tempest can hit further out, when I've shown this to be a meaningless statement because.
1) EVEN with 5 turrets, 425mm's will out damage 6 autocannons outside of web range using any ammo, with 7 turrets vs 6, it's almost no contest at any range, with any ammo, when you consider the megathon has 2 extra low slots for damage mods.

As for the drones...it's a bit ridiculous for a non gallente/amarr, non-drone-bonused ship to have a full compliment of heavies. Minmatar don't use drones as a secondary weapon system, and as the Phoon now has a single primary weapon system to focus on, rather than 2-3. Keeping the full 125 just wouldn't make sense. That said, it's not like they've dropped it down to 50/75. 100mb is still respectable.

Again.. wil try to be simple on exaplanation. When you include drones. MEga out dps temepst up to 20 km.... then temepst outdpe mega from 20-to 25 km.. there.. a rail mega start to outdps temepst again... So....

No temepst do not have a much better damage application. It has a NARROW zone .. VERY NARROW

But is this due to the Hyperion being OP ? Or to the Tempest being underpowered ? I think the 10% damage bonuses CCP used in the tiericide removed a good part of the interest in the double damage bonuses of minmatar ships. The solution is either to reduce these 10% damage bonuses (and rework the ships) or to increase a little one of the bonuses of the minmatar ships (like 2,5% more on the damage or rof bonus, that should be enough).

The solution is either to reduce these 10% damage bonuses (and rework the ships) or to increase a little one of the bonuses of the minmatar ships (like 2,5% more on the damage or rof bonus, that should be enough).

Can anyone tell me why I should fly a tempest with those changes? I mean Mega/Hyperion/Apoc/Geddon really look beasty, but what does the tempest even do? Aside from having two neuts?

For that its only missign 2 things.. heavy DPS.. and the kiting capability.... that leave us with.... WAIT!!!

Falloff bonus is not the way to go because the tornado already has it and the tornado have higher damage and higher mobility.

Tempest:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+8.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret falloff

Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG, 550 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6900 (-100) / 6900 (-400) / 6800
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 (+10) / .11 (-0.1) / 101050000 / ??
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 350 (-10)

Seeing as tiers have now been removed completely from the game, why exactly should the Mael, which is much stronger EHP wise, also be able out damage the Tempest, therefore always leaving the Tempest in a poor second place. I think this paradigm is the possible cause of the Tempests current issue.

By combining bonuses and giving a 8.5% rate of fire bonus instead this is what you are looking at in terms of sustained dps when looking at projectiles taking 100% as the max.

Mael - 100%
Tornado - 100%
Tempest - 98%

So the sustained Dps of the Tempest is just below that of the Tornado and Mael. Then when you take into account the two utilities you will be doing more sustained dps over a period of time.

Now looking at alpha damage this is how it looks with again 100% as the max.

Mael - 100%
Tornado - 100%
Tempest - 75%

So clear roles are evident here now. If you want sustained dps with a mobile hull then the Tempest is now looking very attractive. If you want alpha then you want to go for the mael or the tornado.

Now the falloff bonus is included as the Tempest is an attack BS, and so kiting will be the predominant tactic, this bonus fits that role perfectly with either autos or artillery.

With a proposal along these lines you are getting clear roles for each BS. I haven't calulated where the Typhoon fits in here, but I assume it is putting out even more dps due to its relatively weaker hull as it quite rightly should do. And obviously being a missile ship there is little overlap between the projectile firing Tempest.

If any further nerfs are needed then I would drop EHP further if deemed necessary, although a modicum of EHP will be required as it is intended to kite so will still be sustaining damage despite being able to perhaps mitigate some. But perhaps with this level of dps some reduction may be needed to offset the damage.

But in essence what you will have is a very clear roles.

If you want mobile projectile based dps, then you would choose the Tempest.
If you want sniping, then you go for the Tornado.
If you want fleet ship with heavy tank, good sustained dps and alpha, but a slow hull to compensate, then you have the Mael.
If you want mobile missile based dps, then you go for the Typhoon.

Mm had an idea.. sicne the geddon can get secodnary ewar bonus...


Take your very proposal with 8.5% rof... but change that falloff bonus to WEB RANGE BONUS.

And I buy it... !!!

A web range bonus would be soooooo overpowered.

The double damage bonus is really weak. It's marginally better than a 10% damage bonus that is thrown around as crazy, and it apparently is the one attack ship that is lacking a damage-application bonus,

i would be very happy if CCP switches tempest and typhoon speed (or make them both 130 base speed) even at the expense of some HP, i like the slot layout of the tempest, ofc i would like an extra low or med but since the number of slot for every ship type is fixed i dont think its worth to give up a high, since CCP its going crazy with ship bonus i would give the tempest a +5% rof +7.5% damage maybe at the expense of some drone space make it 25mb 50m space, they would give the thing a 10% edge over other ships as an alpha platform and make the thing a real gankboat like every double damage bonused ships should be.

Better be excelent shield ship than a mediocre armor and shield one :P

The combination of these rebalance efforts and the large rise in battleship build prices will cause fewer people to fly the things, especially terrible under performers like the Tempest and Raven. Maybe this is CCP's intention.

What is the point of relying on the alpha (Even though the rof can be nice) when you can field Tornados? Just doesn't seem worth it for its bonuses alone when I look at it that way. That's because the tempest doesn't seem suitable for any other role but sniping. It probably can do close range, just not as efficiently as other ships of its class.

Another day, no more feedback. And this thread has died a death. The dead horse thoroughly beaten?

Why you keep telling this nonsense? Tornado has longer effective range and is faster than tempest. Tornado is FAR superior for kiting then tempest!!!

Even with the higher HP values, you shouldn't be fielding one or two tempests for small gang warfare anyway. Lets be serious, The tempest is not that fast, when compared to a battlecruiser.

If we are talking outlasting in fights, battlecruisers can do that just fine. Those ships can outlast a tempest easily

you can put a decent tank on them, what are you going to do with a tempest? Armor tank? there goes your speed and damage. Shield tank? There goes your MWD use and cap or any sort of ewar/sensor boosting. Regardless of what you do since your obviously not going to tank the ship. When the enemy can shoot back, the tempest won't last that much longer than a tornado, specially if you have few tempests on the field. Even then it depends on what you're shooting at. Which reduces the usefulness of having one greatly.

Fleets have used them in the past for long distance engagements. Now the tempest is just worse in it's role thanks to the new changes, meaning price increase and tracking enhancer nerf.

I never flew the Tempest as a sniper ship though. I always used it as a speed, deep falloff, kiting ship.

The TE nerf changes that alot...

the tempest has no tank to survive "Sustained firepower" just like the tornado. The super carrier and carrier comparison is pointless, those ships have a tank and require constant DPS. A Tempest and a tornado can be alpha striked because they have no tank. A drake has a far superior tank to the tempest. I've seen battlecruisers tank a lot more than a tempest ever could, some of them capable of dishing out decent amounts of DPS.

Exactly. however if you want a battleship for neuts, you have the armageddon that way ---> so why would I want to use a tempest again?

I'm not sure how I'm overplaying the weakness of the tempest. Your example above shows numbers, but it doesn't describe the fact that the tempest has no tank and a battleship with no tank, does not last very long just like a Tornado. Sure it might have more HP, and a lot more when you look at the numbers, but look at how much damage a tornado will do with an alpha or a maelstrom, hitting at over 10k damage, a couple of those hitting a tempest, bye bye tempest. Won't take very long to shoot one down.

Tempest:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+8.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret falloff

Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG, 550 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6900 (-100) / 6900 (-400) / 6800
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 (+10) / .11 (-0.1) / 101050000 / ??
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 350 (-10)

Seeing as tiers have now been removed completely from the game, why exactly should the Mael, which is much stronger EHP wise, also be able out damage the Tempest, therefore always leaving the Tempest in a poor second place. I think this paradigm is the possible cause of the Tempests current issue.

By combining bonuses and giving a 8.5% rate of fire bonus instead this is what you are looking at in terms of sustained dps when looking at projectiles taking 100% as the max.

Mael - 100%
Tornado - 100%
Tempest - 98%

So the sustained Dps of the Tempest is just below that of the Tornado and Mael. Then when you take into account the two utilities you will be doing more sustained dps over a period of time.

Now looking at alpha damage this is how it looks with again 100% as the max.

Mael - 100%
Tornado - 100%
Tempest - 75%

So clear roles are evident here now. If you want sustained dps with a mobile hull then the Tempest is now looking very attractive. If you want alpha then you want to go for the mael or the tornado.

Now the falloff bonus is included as the Tempest is an attack BS, and so kiting will be the predominant tactic, this bonus fits that role perfectly with either autos or artillery.

With a proposal along these lines you are getting clear roles for each BS. I haven't calulated where the Typhoon fits in here, but I assume it is putting out even more dps due to its relatively weaker hull as it quite rightly should do. And obviously being a missile ship there is little overlap between the projectile firing Tempest.

If any further nerfs are needed then I would drop EHP further if deemed necessary, although a modicum of EHP will be required as it is intended to kite so will still be sustaining damage despite being able to perhaps mitigate some. But perhaps with this level of dps some reduction may be needed to offset the damage.

But in essence what you will have is a very clear roles.

If you want mobile projectile based dps, then you would choose the Tempest.
If you want sniping, then you go for the Tornado.
If you want fleet ship with heavy tank, good sustained dps and alpha, but a slow hull to compensate, then you have the Mael.
If you want mobile missile based dps, then you go for the Typhoon.

please do something about the slot layout on the tempest holy christ

And after testing the phoon on sisi, even with crap cpu, holy **** what an amazing ship to fly. The Tempest is a joke. I do a better job kitting with a domi (lol at 700 dps gardes @56km optimal)

CCP Rises bigger hurricane nonsense has never seemed more out of touch.

Kitting with auto's is dumb in the land of fast ravens spewing 600-700 dps worth of 10km/s cruise missiles out to practically infinity. I mean, what's the point of doing half that dps at only 40-50km? Or a third that dps with armour?

Hey guys, sorry for the time between posts. I've been reading plenty and working on final touches as the feedback from sisi starts to trickle in.

A couple small things I can say for sure - the Typhoon being 100/125 is intentional, I'm not sure why it was written up differently in the thread, but I've fixed it now, sorry for that. When the Tempest got re-billed as 'attack' we really only went part way with it, and I think we need to finish the job by speeding it up a bit more to make it really stand out in that role. I'm not sure exactly which numbers will be changing, but I'll let you know soon.

I also want to say that I'm listening to what you guys have to say about the Typhoon, but I really believe this new version is still going to offer more versatility than your average battleship, while also becoming 'better' in most variations, as well as providing a clear progression for Minmatar players who have focused on missiles. I'm hearing from sisi that people are enjoying it a lot, and it was even popular in the SCL yesterday, which is a good sign I think.

The slot layout is the dumbest thing about the tempest, utility highs are next to pointless if your working with 1400s.

Understand that your firmly in the minority in that aspect. Performance issues stemmed from split weapons requiring twice as many damage or tracking mods as single weapons, and thus effectively having less lows. You can't fix performance issues of split weapons without removing split weapon systems.

Even in general game play, assuming people fly a gank fitted pest this days(and I bet a fair amount of money they don't), 2 CMs give you only about 100 extra dps(130 with the changes).

A falloff bonus at 20-30km is well worth 70 DPS

In a 7/6/6 or 7/5/7 tempest, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from dropping 1 or more of your 6 turret hardpoints for an additional launcher.

Either way, there isn't actually anything stopping CCP Rise simply adding a slot arbitrarily in the special case of the tempest, i mean, they don't do it *just because of :gamedesign:* but then again 3 battleships already have the wrong number of slots and minmatar battlecruisers in the past have had more slots than their peers.... so all this high vs lows vs mids is really academic.

My point is that performance matters, and that's why split weapons suck. If fitting split weapons was REALLY so important that you'd sacrifice performance in your main weapon system, you'd happy trade turrets for missiles regardless of how many turret spots you've maxed out.

If that sounds silly, then welcome to how I, and I'm sure many others view the "cosmetic value' aspect of your argument.

No, it's not the same logic. Eve game mechanics offers limited, but real, alternative paths, niches, environments or roles, with weapons systems that are behaviourally different enough to provide real choice. Deliberately building inefficiency is only OK if it excels in a given role, otherwise your just pissing people off by making them train more, fit more mods, and waste more slots to accomplish a trivial level of performance.

I personally don't believe projectiles and armour mix (projectiles have deliberately low dps for too many good reasons and thus need spare low slots for dps, and oversized shield mods for tank) - and given that we have at least 4 other t1 turret plus armour, ships, and that amarr and gallente have managed to have two of each, minmatar should have 2 shield based ships, one with alpha, and the other with fall off.

CCP Rise mentioned something about armour artillery. If he were to go down that route, the ship as designed would have to be changed to forfill that role efficiently, in that context, would you rather have a tracking computer or damage mod or cruise missile launcher?

A utility med for a TD/better tank options to outlast them at your range. Both options the extra med slot would provide.

Tempest:

Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+8.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
+5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret falloff

Slot layout: 8H, 5M, 6L; 6 turrets , 4 launchers
Fittings: 16000 PWG, 550 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6900 (-100) / 6900 (-400) / 6800
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 5400 / 1154s / 4.68
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 (+10) / .11 (-0.1) / 101050000 / ??
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 75 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 67.5km / 100 / 7
Sensor strength: 20 Ladar Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 350 (-10)

Seeing as tiers have now been removed completely from the game, why exactly should the Mael, which is much stronger EHP wise, also be able out damage the Tempest, therefore always leaving the Tempest in a poor second place. I think this paradigm is the possible cause of the Tempests current issue.

By combining bonuses and giving a 8.5% rate of fire bonus instead this is what you are looking at in terms of sustained dps when looking at projectiles taking 100% as the max.

Mael - 100%
Tornado - 100%
Tempest - 98%

So the sustained Dps of the Tempest is just below that of the Tornado and Mael. Then when you take into account the two utilities you will be doing more sustained dps over a period of time.

Now looking at alpha damage this is how it looks with again 100% as the max.

Mael - 100%
Tornado - 100%
Tempest - 75%

So clear roles are evident here now. If you want sustained dps with a mobile hull then the Tempest is now looking very attractive. If you want alpha then you want to go for the mael or the tornado.

Now the falloff bonus is included as the Tempest is an attack BS, and so kiting will be the predominant tactic, this bonus fits that role perfectly with either autos or artillery.

With a proposal along these lines you are getting clear roles for each BS. I haven't calulated where the Typhoon fits in here, but I assume it is putting out even more dps due to its relatively weaker hull as it quite rightly should do. And obviously being a missile ship there is little overlap between the projectile firing Tempest.

If any further nerfs are needed then I would drop EHP further if deemed necessary, although a modicum of EHP will be required as it is intended to kite so will still be sustaining damage despite being able to perhaps mitigate some. But perhaps with this level of dps some reduction may be needed to offset the damage.

But in essence what you will have is a very clear roles.

If you want mobile projectile based dps, then you would choose the Tempest.
If you want sniping, then you go for the Tornado.
If you want fleet ship with heavy tank, good sustained dps and alpha, but a slow hull to compensate, then you have the Mael.
If you want mobile missile based dps, then you go for the Typhoon.

1) It'll be an attack ship with a shield and armour ability - vs a very slow combat ship with +37% more active tank or a ABC with a 5th the hit points.

2) The Talos and Hyperion doesn't stop the Megathron from being an armour tanking attack ship, nor does the Abaddon or Oracle stop the Apoc from being an armour combat ship, why should it be different in this case?

3) And, it will have as many low slots as it does in your proposal, IT WILL ARMOUR TANK NO WORSE than it does now. Perhaps better, if you want to toss in things like cap batteries and or re-chargers for pvp/pve.

4) Shield tanking enhances damage application, which seems to be your no1 problem. Funny that.

5) The fall off bonus alone isn't enough, compare fall off with what a cruise missile phoon would do? In many ways, the slot layout offers more meaningful change than changing the bonuses

6) Oh, and there are just too many armour battleships, too many armour +turret battleships - the game is healthier trying to balance this out.

i feel like this is the best solution so far

+1

Tempest:

127 Max velocity (+7)

.119 Agility (-.001)

6800 Shield hp (-200)

7000 Amor hp (-300)

You just keep makign the same mistake! The tempest is still LESS damage, LEss tank (due to wrse slot layout), LEss drones, Larger, more massive than typhoon.

Most of us here have requested a better slot layout either +1 to low or +1 to mid, and a 7.5% ROF bonus, or a fall off bonus, if you could give us those things combined with the speed changes, then we might be able to see the tempest be given a role that it can stand out in. Right now even with this change it's far from standing out.

He was too busy telling everyone not to panic a few days ago.

They will do their changes, and then they will wait until the meta to settle. Only problem is that the meta never settles in here. So changes will not be fast, and when they are faster than usual, it's 1 pg, 100 armor, or, well... drones.

If you fit same number of damage mods and use rest to tank Typhoon pass ahead EHP wise.

I can Kill 3 of these with 2 typhoons or megathrons.

The armageddon Does overlap that. It can do basically almost as much damage as the tempest using torpedoes and drones. That with superior slot layout. Also active tanked and dual neuts is NOT a role, its a FAIL fit because you will cap yourself too fast.

Logn range arti with shield is maelstrom ROLE! THe maesltrom is WAy superior there.

So No there is no realistic situation you would prefer the tempest over other ships.

I very much doubt we'll be seeing +7.5%/level RoF bonuses on ships except very occasionally - it's a huge bonus, and one that rewards high levels of skill too much. Yes, it 'only' gives 9.6 turrets to the Tempest, but still. You'd be more likely to be listen to if you campaigned for +10% damage/level - a smaller, but still large, bonus.

Very true, I do not understand why they ask for feedback when they wont respond or listen even when people give it.

Would be just easier for them to say, these are the changes, we dont care what you think and deal with it.

Though I believe they ask the way they do to try and keep from a total blow up.

Perhaps I was unfair in my assessment. I do trust that he will actually make appropriate changes based on the resulting meta.
I'm just worried since CCP history dictates "any changes are final for at least 3 years".

BTW, does anyone know if the current modification of the Tempest is on SiSi yet? If so, I might (gasp) actually spend a few minutes setting up a copy of my EVE directory for it. (I used to test stuff all the time, but haven't been able to be bothered for the last 4 or 5 years.)

The 7/ms buff woudl only be useful if the tempest had around same mass/agility of the typhoon.

No its not! Speed boost do not help align time neither acceleration!

Acceleration is dependent on mass ang AGILITY stats! Tempest takes more time to reach top speed than typhoon, and megatrhon. That whl the typhoon alignign faster and having quite faster top speed.

The AGILITY change is so minor that is almsot offensive


Tempest is COMPLETELY inferior to typhoon mobility wise.

Aww you guys spotted it so quick!

I kind of finalized it right before I left the office today so I figured I would post tomorrow =P But yes, as you can see in the OP we adjusted the mass of the Tempest down to 99500000 and the agility down to .116. This is actually a small change that resulted from a fairly detailed talk with Fozzie about the state of the Tempest heading for Odyssey. We both feel that this version looks solid for this release, and so there shouldn't be any more tweaks until after we've seen the aftermath of the entire battleship rebalance.

Thanks for the help, we'll talk again after release =)

Wow, looked at the new slot layout for the tweaked Hype and Mega. So jelly. Good thing the typhoon is nice cause there is no way in hell I'd ever fly a tempest, for anything. 7/6/6, 7/5/7-dont mind loosing a utility slot, still have one. Or 7 guns and give it a falloff bonus instead.

Shame because it looks really nice now.

Compare it to the tweaked Mega. Yeah, see what I mean.

Guys...I'm scared. I just had empathy towards mission runners. Next time you see me in lowsec, pod me. I think this clone is defective.